Aeolus Organ Synth

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Aeolus Organ Synth

ChurchOrganist
Fons Adrianssen seems to be frothing at the mouth about our use of the Aeolus Pipe Organ synth in MuseScore.

http://comments.gmane.org/gmane.linux.audio.devel/29966

Should one of us contact him?
Regards
Michael
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Re: Aeolus Organ Synth

D. Michael McIntyre
On 09/22/2013 08:54 AM, ChurchOrganist wrote:

> Fons Adrianssen seems to be frothing at the mouth about our use of the Aeolus
> Pipe Organ synth in MuseScore.
>
> http://comments.gmane.org/gmane.linux.audio.devel/29966
>
> Should one of us contact him?

I can see lots of sides to that issue.  I ended up writing a small book
about the history of open source music projects, forks, and politics.

I deleted the book, and I'll leave you with the recommendation that if I
were you, yes, I'd send an emissary over to contact Fons.  It's just
going to work out better for everyone in the end if you can find some
politically acceptable way to navigate this situation.

Apologize to him about not including him from the beginning, explain
what your purpose in doing this is, and try to make amends.

If he won't make amends, then own the fork and carry on.  It's all you
can do.  It will go smoother if you succeed in building a bridge and
establishing friendly relations though.
--
D. Michael McIntyre

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Re: Aeolus Organ Synth

Peter Schepers
In reply to this post by ChurchOrganist
Michael, first off, in case you've not seen this paper, I found it during a search for something else...

http://kokkinizita.linuxaudio.org/papers/aeolus-pres.pdf

Basically, it's a presentation he did in 2004 to the Linux Audio community about the design of Aeolus. Might be helpful, probably not anymore.

Now, I've read most of the very long thread, and I certainly don't know what Fons' problem is, except for ego. He claims that '...both [forks] are taking Aeolus in a direction I do not approve of' but without clarifying what his disapproval is. Miwarre was only experimenting for himself, and I don't think the MuseScore team has made any major coding changes except for your latest reconfig of the stops, which may or may not be wanted upstream.

I do agree with the first responder that, regardless of strictly abiding to the GPL license, we don't want to be seen as renegades and so some contact is necessary, along with an explanation of MS' use of Aeolus.
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Re: Aeolus Organ Synth

wschweer9
Some time ago i hacked the Aeolus synthesizer to integrate it into
MuseScore. I did
it out of interest and as an test environment to experiment with midi
messages send
during playback of a score (changing the stops).

The current status is that the integration is still incomplete and it is
debatable to
include it into the next major release. I contacted Fons about this and
the decision
about Aeolus integration will also depend on his answer.

I believe that in the long run it would be best to replace all
integrated synthesizer and effects with
a plugin system like VSTi.


On 25.09.2013 17:16, Peter Schepers wrote:

> ...
>
> I do agree with the first responder that, regardless of strictly abiding to
> the GPL license, we don't want to be seen as renegades and so some contact
> is necessary, along with an explanation of MS' use of Aeolus.
>
>
>
>
>


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Re: Aeolus Organ Synth

ChurchOrganist
In reply to this post by Peter Schepers
Thanks for that Peter, in fact I had already found this myself whilst searching for documentation. It isn't actually much help, although it does fill in one or two gaps in my knowledge.

The thing that strikes me is that Aeolus appeared to be a dead project from the pretty extensive searches I made when I first became aware of its existence in the nightlies. This was largely due to Fons not dealing with out-dated links properly - in fact his link on Linux Audio Developers members page still points to the defunct kokkinizita.net link which has probably caused all this trouble (see) http://www.linuxaudio.org/members

I did actually find his own Aeolus page but as at the time the last update was in 2010, the mailing lists mentioned at the Muse Aeolus page were completely dead, and there was absolutely no documentation to be found anywhere apart from the somewhat sketchy information on the Muse page, I concluded that the project had been abandoned, which is why Maurizio, after a lot of poking around the net himself decided to experiment with it.

Like you I waded through most of that extremely long thread, and was amazed that he was still working on it.

The question is did Werner also think the project was dead? All the available evidence, unless you were a member of the LAD mailing list suggests that was the case.

I agree that Fons should be contacted.

Incidentally, the latest version recognised by the Ubuntu Studio PPA is 0.8.4-6 I quote from the Launchpad PPA: "There are no projects registered in Launchpad that are a potential match for this source package. Can you help us find one? "

Regards
Michael

Peter Schepers wrote
Michael, first off, in case you've not seen this paper, I found it during a search for something else...

http://kokkinizita.linuxaudio.org/papers/aeolus-pres.pdf

Basically, it's a presentation he did in 2004 to the Linux Audio community about the design of Aeolus. Might be helpful, probably not anymore.

Now, I've read most of the very long thread, and I certainly don't know what Fons' problem is, except for ego. He claims that '...both [forks] are taking Aeolus in a direction I do not approve of' but without clarifying what his disapproval is. Miwarre was only experimenting for himself, and I don't think the MuseScore team has made any major coding changes except for your latest reconfig of the stops, which may or may not be wanted upstream.

I do agree with the first responder that, regardless of strictly abiding to the GPL license, we don't want to be seen as renegades and so some contact is necessary, along with an explanation of MS' use of Aeolus.
Regards
Michael
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Re: Aeolus Organ Synth

ChurchOrganist
In reply to this post by wschweer9
In which case perhaps I should contact John McCoy to see whether we can include an official fork of the Jeux Soundfont with MuseScore.

He seems to be quite open to people working with the Jeux Soundfont, although I see there has been no development since 2000.

Although not quite up to the same standard as Aeolus, the organs sounds available from the Jeux soundfont are pretty good, although they will need some editing for our particular use. The current size uncompressed is just over 3 MB which isn't going to strain things too much.

Unless I hear objections, I will contact him by email early next week to see how he feels about including Jeux with the upcoming MuseScore 2 installation.
Regards
Michael
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Re: Aeolus Organ Synth

Maurizio M. Gavioli
It is not up to me to make objections! Just out of curiosity:

1) You are an organist, I am not. Is McCoy's Jeux (I think you refer to the 1.4 version) good enough (flexible enough) to be worth including an organ-specific sound font? I played with it years ago and I have no specific recollections of having been exceedingly impressed (my fault, likely!).

2) Are you aware of Jeux d'Orgue by J. Basquin ( I got it from here )? It is larger (22MB) but I seem to remember it was quite good.

Thanks,

M.
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Re: Aeolus Organ Synth

lasconic
Administrator
In reply to this post by ChurchOrganist
I don't see the point of including more specific soundfonts by default in MuseScore. If we add one for Organ, why not for other instruments.
However, I'm in favor of making the default playback (so the default soundfont) better if we can do it and keep the sf3 under a reasonable size. The sound in the soundfont should also be balanced to play well together.

I would also like a better way to install soundfonts in MuseScore, and maybe an online "curated" collection...

lasconic




2013/9/26 Maurizio M. Gavioli <[hidden email]>
It is not up to me to make objections! Just out of curiosity:

1) You are an organist, I am not. Is McCoy's Jeux (I think you refer to the
1.4 version) good enough (flexible enough) to be worth including an
organ-specific sound font? I played with it years ago and I have no specific
recollections of having been exceedingly impressed (my fault, likely!).

2) Are you aware of Jeux d'Orgue by J. Basquin (  I got it from here
<http://www.jeuxdorgues.com/>   )? It is larger (22MB) but I seem to
remember it was quite good.

Thanks,

M.



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Re: Aeolus Organ Synth

ChurchOrganist
In reply to this post by Maurizio M. Gavioli
The samples included in Jeux 1.4 give the possibility to play a wide range of organ music, although it will need tweaking a little to suit MuseScore's idiosyncrasies.

I was using it in 1.2 for organ sounds until I discovered Aeolus in 2.0. What I would prefer is a plugin version of Aeolus, but I think that is unlikely to happen due to Fons' apparent hatred of Windows.

I wasn't aware of Jeux d'Orgue, and I shall be looking at that over the weekend.

Michael
 
Maurizio M. Gavioli wrote
It is not up to me to make objections! Just out of curiosity:

1) You are an organist, I am not. Is McCoy's Jeux (I think you refer to the 1.4 version) good enough (flexible enough) to be worth including an organ-specific sound font? I played with it years ago and I have no specific recollections of having been exceedingly impressed (my fault, likely!).

2) Are you aware of Jeux d'Orgue by J. Basquin ( I got it from here )? It is larger (22MB) but I seem to remember it was quite good.

Thanks,

M.
Regards
Michael
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Re: Aeolus Organ Synth

ChurchOrganist
In reply to this post by lasconic
Obviously I am biased as an organist, but I feel the pipe organ is a special case due to the appalling GM implementation of the sounds possible.

All the other instruments in the default Fluid soundfont bear a good resemblance to the actual sound of the instrument, apart from pipe organ.

Agreed it is somewhat specialist, and your idea about a "curated" collection is a great idea.

Perhaps that is the way forward on this?

Again a better way to install soundfonts would be good - do you have anything particular in mind?

I do think that it is important to maintain an official subset of "supported" soundfonts to guarantee playback on musescore.com.

Whether we would need to include it in the default install is debatable, but easy access to a MuseScpre customised version of Jeux (and any other soundfont we wish to have tweaked versions of), downloadable from a link in say Preferences would IMO be a great idea.

In the case of Jeux, some alterations will need to be made to the soundfont to make it work well with MuseScore, which is why I want to get John McCoy's blessing first.

Michael
Regards
Michael
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Re: Aeolus Organ Synth

Maurizio M. Gavioli
In reply to this post by lasconic
lasconic wrote
I don't see the point of including more specific soundfonts by default in
MuseScore. If we add one for Organ, why not for other instruments.
As I said, I am not an organist and I think not to be biased in favor of it, but if there is an 'instrument' which, in case, could deserve a specific sound font it is the pipe organ, which after all is considered a single instrument only by tradition.
I would also like a better way to install soundfonts in MuseScore, and
maybe an online "curated" collection...
I agree with Michael that this would be an excellent idea, given the current state of things. On the other hand, I often ask myself how vital the sound font technology is: it seems to me that no significant progress has been made and no important sound font has been contributed since a decade, maybe more.

Maurizio
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Re: Aeolus Organ Synth

ChurchOrganist
Ultimately I agree with Werner that we should be working towards the use of a plugin framework such as VST so that users can use the synths of their choice.

For 2.0, however, we are restricted to soundfont technology and possibly Aeolus if Fons agrees.

We have a major step forward in that 2.0 can use multiple soundfonts. What we really need is a home for MuseScore team approved or customised soundfonts, other than my FileFactory account.

Would there be space somewhere on the MuseScore servers?

Michael
Regards
Michael
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Re: Aeolus Organ Synth

Thomas Bonte
Administrator
Hey Michael,

There is already place reserved on our FTP server at http://prereleases.musescore.org
Let me know if you like to have upload access.
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Re: Aeolus Organ Synth

ChurchOrganist
That would be useful Thomas, although it will be a week or two before I have anything fit to upload.

Michael

Thomas Bonte wrote
Hey Michael,

There is already place reserved on our FTP server at http://prereleases.musescore.org
Let me know if you like to have upload access.
Regards
Michael
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Re: Aeolus Organ Synth

Jojo-Schmitz
In reply to this post by ChurchOrganist
Hi folks

Shouldn't the github readme point to http://kokkinizita.linuxaudio.org/linuxaudio/aeolus/ rather than the antediluvian link it currently points to?

bye, Jojo


ChurchOrganist <[hidden email]> schrieb:

>Thanks for that Peter, in fact I had already found this myself whilst
>searching for documentation. It isn't actually much help, although it does
>fill in one or two gaps in my knowledge.
>
>The thing that strikes me is that Aeolus appeared to be a dead project from
>the pretty extensive searches I made when I first became aware of its
>existence in the nightlies. This was largely due to Fons not dealing with
>out-dated links properly - in fact his link on Linux Audio Developers
>members page still points to the defunct kokkinizita.net link which has
>probably caused all this trouble (see) http://www.linuxaudio.org/members
>
>I did actually find his own Aeolus page but as at the time the last update
>was in 2010, the mailing lists mentioned at the Muse Aeolus page were
>completely dead, and there was absolutely no documentation to be found
>anywhere apart from the somewhat sketchy information on the Muse page, I
>concluded that the project had been abandoned, which is why Maurizio, after
>a lot of poking around the net himself decided to experiment with it.
>
>Like you I waded through most of that extremely long thread, and was amazed
>that he was still working on it.
>
>The question is did Werner also think the project was dead? All the
>available evidence, unless you were a member of the LAD mailing list
>suggests that was the case.
>
>I agree that Fons should be contacted.
>
>Incidentally, the latest version recognised by the Ubuntu Studio PPA is
>0.8.4-6 I quote from the Launchpad PPA: "There are no projects registered in
>Launchpad that are a potential match for this source package. Can you help
>us find one? "
>
>Regards
>Michael
>
>
>Peter Schepers wrote
>> Michael, first off, in case you've not seen this paper, I found it during
>> a search for something else...
>>
>> http://kokkinizita.linuxaudio.org/papers/aeolus-pres.pdf
>>
>> Basically, it's a presentation he did in 2004 to the Linux Audio community
>> about the design of Aeolus. Might be helpful, probably not anymore.
>>
>> Now, I've read most of the very long thread, and I certainly don't know
>> what Fons' problem is, except for ego. He claims that '...both [forks] are
>> taking Aeolus in a direction I do not approve of' but without clarifying
>> what his disapproval is. Miwarre was only experimenting for himself, and I
>> don't think the MuseScore team has made any major coding changes except
>> for your latest reconfig of the stops, which may or may not be wanted
>> upstream.
>>
>> I do agree with the first responder that, regardless of strictly abiding
>> to the GPL license, we don't want to be seen as renegades and so some
>> contact is necessary, along with an explanation of MS' use of Aeolus.
>
>
>
>
>
>-----
>Regards
>Michael
>--
>View this message in context: http://dev-list.musescore.org/Aeolus-Organ-Synth-tp7578364p7578379.html
>Sent from the MuseScore Developer mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>
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Re: Aeolus Organ Synth

lasconic
Administrator
Done. README.md is updated.

lasconic


2013/9/28 Joachim Schmitz <[hidden email]>
Hi folks

Shouldn't the github readme point to http://kokkinizita.linuxaudio.org/linuxaudio/aeolus/ rather than the antediluvian link it currently points to?

bye, Jojo


ChurchOrganist <[hidden email]> schrieb:

>Thanks for that Peter, in fact I had already found this myself whilst
>searching for documentation. It isn't actually much help, although it does
>fill in one or two gaps in my knowledge.
>
>The thing that strikes me is that Aeolus appeared to be a dead project from
>the pretty extensive searches I made when I first became aware of its
>existence in the nightlies. This was largely due to Fons not dealing with
>out-dated links properly - in fact his link on Linux Audio Developers
>members page still points to the defunct kokkinizita.net link which has
>probably caused all this trouble (see) http://www.linuxaudio.org/members
>
>I did actually find his own Aeolus page but as at the time the last update
>was in 2010, the mailing lists mentioned at the Muse Aeolus page were
>completely dead, and there was absolutely no documentation to be found
>anywhere apart from the somewhat sketchy information on the Muse page, I
>concluded that the project had been abandoned, which is why Maurizio, after
>a lot of poking around the net himself decided to experiment with it.
>
>Like you I waded through most of that extremely long thread, and was amazed
>that he was still working on it.
>
>The question is did Werner also think the project was dead? All the
>available evidence, unless you were a member of the LAD mailing list
>suggests that was the case.
>
>I agree that Fons should be contacted.
>
>Incidentally, the latest version recognised by the Ubuntu Studio PPA is
>0.8.4-6 I quote from the Launchpad PPA: "There are no projects registered in
>Launchpad that are a potential match for this source package. Can you help
>us find one? "
>
>Regards
>Michael
>
>
>Peter Schepers wrote
>> Michael, first off, in case you've not seen this paper, I found it during
>> a search for something else...
>>
>> http://kokkinizita.linuxaudio.org/papers/aeolus-pres.pdf
>>
>> Basically, it's a presentation he did in 2004 to the Linux Audio community
>> about the design of Aeolus. Might be helpful, probably not anymore.
>>
>> Now, I've read most of the very long thread, and I certainly don't know
>> what Fons' problem is, except for ego. He claims that '...both [forks] are
>> taking Aeolus in a direction I do not approve of' but without clarifying
>> what his disapproval is. Miwarre was only experimenting for himself, and I
>> don't think the MuseScore team has made any major coding changes except
>> for your latest reconfig of the stops, which may or may not be wanted
>> upstream.
>>
>> I do agree with the first responder that, regardless of strictly abiding
>> to the GPL license, we don't want to be seen as renegades and so some
>> contact is necessary, along with an explanation of MS' use of Aeolus.
>
>
>
>
>
>-----
>Regards
>Michael
>--
>View this message in context: http://dev-list.musescore.org/Aeolus-Organ-Synth-tp7578364p7578379.html
>Sent from the MuseScore Developer mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Re: Aeolus Organ Synth

lasconic
Administrator
About soundfonts.

1/ The current master also has primitive support for SFZ...

2/ SF2 tech is old but still working. There is even a recent effort to create a SF2 editor http://polyphone.fr Version 1.0 released beginning of september 2013

3/ About installing soundfont more easily. I can see two ways.
* Make MuseScore recognize sf2/sf3 file types when double click or dragged. A dialog box could ask the user if he wants to "install" the soundfont to be use with MuseScore. If yes, the soundfont would be copied in the soundfont directory, and then available in Display->Synthesizer. Currently MuseScore supports several soundfont folders. I would propose to support only one custom folder and the hardcoded one. The soundfont would be copied in the custom one.
* We are currently working on something to let users download updated and new translations of the MuseScore UI and install them directly from within MuseScore. I can imagine it would be a nice thing to have the same infrastructure for soundfonts.

lasconic


2013/9/28 Lasconic <[hidden email]>
Done. README.md is updated.

lasconic


2013/9/28 Joachim Schmitz <[hidden email]>
Hi folks

Shouldn't the github readme point to http://kokkinizita.linuxaudio.org/linuxaudio/aeolus/ rather than the antediluvian link it currently points to?

bye, Jojo


ChurchOrganist <[hidden email]> schrieb:

>Thanks for that Peter, in fact I had already found this myself whilst
>searching for documentation. It isn't actually much help, although it does
>fill in one or two gaps in my knowledge.
>
>The thing that strikes me is that Aeolus appeared to be a dead project from
>the pretty extensive searches I made when I first became aware of its
>existence in the nightlies. This was largely due to Fons not dealing with
>out-dated links properly - in fact his link on Linux Audio Developers
>members page still points to the defunct kokkinizita.net link which has
>probably caused all this trouble (see) http://www.linuxaudio.org/members
>
>I did actually find his own Aeolus page but as at the time the last update
>was in 2010, the mailing lists mentioned at the Muse Aeolus page were
>completely dead, and there was absolutely no documentation to be found
>anywhere apart from the somewhat sketchy information on the Muse page, I
>concluded that the project had been abandoned, which is why Maurizio, after
>a lot of poking around the net himself decided to experiment with it.
>
>Like you I waded through most of that extremely long thread, and was amazed
>that he was still working on it.
>
>The question is did Werner also think the project was dead? All the
>available evidence, unless you were a member of the LAD mailing list
>suggests that was the case.
>
>I agree that Fons should be contacted.
>
>Incidentally, the latest version recognised by the Ubuntu Studio PPA is
>0.8.4-6 I quote from the Launchpad PPA: "There are no projects registered in
>Launchpad that are a potential match for this source package. Can you help
>us find one? "
>
>Regards
>Michael
>
>
>Peter Schepers wrote
>> Michael, first off, in case you've not seen this paper, I found it during
>> a search for something else...
>>
>> http://kokkinizita.linuxaudio.org/papers/aeolus-pres.pdf
>>
>> Basically, it's a presentation he did in 2004 to the Linux Audio community
>> about the design of Aeolus. Might be helpful, probably not anymore.
>>
>> Now, I've read most of the very long thread, and I certainly don't know
>> what Fons' problem is, except for ego. He claims that '...both [forks] are
>> taking Aeolus in a direction I do not approve of' but without clarifying
>> what his disapproval is. Miwarre was only experimenting for himself, and I
>> don't think the MuseScore team has made any major coding changes except
>> for your latest reconfig of the stops, which may or may not be wanted
>> upstream.
>>
>> I do agree with the first responder that, regardless of strictly abiding
>> to the GPL license, we don't want to be seen as renegades and so some
>> contact is necessary, along with an explanation of MS' use of Aeolus.
>
>
>
>
>
>-----
>Regards
>Michael
>--
>View this message in context: http://dev-list.musescore.org/Aeolus-Organ-Synth-tp7578364p7578379.html
>Sent from the MuseScore Developer mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Re: Aeolus Organ Synth

ChurchOrganist
SFZ is supposed to be a more powerful format, but I have yet to find a graphical editor. As far as I can tell you still have to configure an SFZ file by means of writing scripts, which is not very conducive to the creative flow :)

I had a look at Polyphone on my Windows 8 system. Unfortunately all the parameters are squashed together so they're unreadable, and the virtual keyboard is so small as to be virtually unusable. I will try installing it to a Windows XP system to see if that improves matters.

Your proposal regarding the installation of soundfonts sounds excellent - being able to double click a soundfont file to install into MuseScore would be a great boon. The only issue would be whether Viena or Polyphone was already installed on the system and allocated as the default application for opening soundfont files - would there be a way of overriding this if MuseScore was already running?

Michael
lasconic wrote
About soundfonts.

1/ The current master also has primitive support for SFZ...

2/ SF2 tech is old but still working. There is even a recent effort to
create a SF2 editor http://polyphone.fr Version 1.0 released beginning of
september 2013

3/ About installing soundfont more easily. I can see two ways.
* Make MuseScore recognize sf2/sf3 file types when double click or dragged.
A dialog box could ask the user if he wants to "install" the soundfont to
be use with MuseScore. If yes, the soundfont would be copied in the
soundfont directory, and then available in Display->Synthesizer. Currently
MuseScore supports several soundfont folders. I would propose to support
only one custom folder and the hardcoded one. The soundfont would be copied
in the custom one.
* We are currently working on something to let users download updated and
new translations of the MuseScore UI and install them directly from within
MuseScore. I can imagine it would be a nice thing to have the same
infrastructure for soundfonts.

lasconic
Regards
Michael
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Re: Aeolus Organ Synth

lasconic
Administrator



2013/9/28 ChurchOrganist <[hidden email]>
SFZ is supposed to be a more powerful format, but I have yet to find a
graphical editor. As far as I can tell you still have to configure an SFZ
file by means of writing scripts, which is not very conducive to the
creative flow :)

I never tried them but there are a couple SFZ editors out there such as  http://audio.clockbeat.com/sfZed.html
There are also some tutorials to learn how to edit SFZ files manually.

We do know that Zerberus the SFZ player in MuseScore is still in its infancy. There are several solid SFZ players out there that MuseScore could use via Jack or via a plugin system.
 
 
I had a look at Polyphone on my Windows 8 system. Unfortunately all the
parameters are squashed together so they're unreadable, and the virtual
keyboard is so small as to be virtually unusable. I will try installing it
to a Windows XP system to see if that improves matters.

I'm pretty  sure the polyphone developer is eager to get feedback and maybe fix bugs.
 

Your proposal regarding the installation of soundfonts sounds excellent -
being able to double click a soundfont file to install into MuseScore would
be a great boon. The only issue would be whether Viena or Polyphone was
already installed on the system and allocated as the default application for
opening soundfont files - would there be a way of overriding this if
MuseScore was already running?

It's up to the system... MuseScore would register as being able to open sf2/sf3, last installed would win on Windows. But you change file association manually at system level.
Mac and Linux are different beasts...

lasconic
 

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Re: Polyphone (Was Aeolus synth)

ChurchOrganist
lasconic wrote
2013/9/28 ChurchOrganist <[hidden email]>

> I had a look at Polyphone on my Windows 8 system. Unfortunately all the
> parameters are squashed together so they're unreadable, and the virtual
> keyboard is so small as to be virtually unusable. I will try installing it
> to a Windows XP system to see if that improves matters.
>

I'm pretty  sure the polyphone developer is eager to get feedback and maybe
fix bugs.
I had a little time today so I headed over to Polyphone's SourceForge page to report the Windows 8 bug, but there seems to be no way to open an issue.

Do you have any contact with the developer Nicolas?

If so, perhaps you would ask him to let me know how to report bugs?

Regards
Michael
Regards
Michael
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