GSOC 2016 - Project Idea: Multi Measure Rests

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GSOC 2016 - Project Idea: Multi Measure Rests

Yomj
Hello! 

My name is Joyce Yom, and I'm a sophomore studying Computer Science at Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute. I only heard about GSOC just a few days ago, otherwise I would have contacted MuseScore a LOT earlier. 

I do not have much experience with Qt, but I have extensive experience with C++, which is what I prefer to code in. 

I was wondering if for my project, I could implement an easier way to notate multiple measure rests.Currently, the only way to implement these is adding them in at the end by checking the box for "Create multimeasure rests" under the Style menu, or to create split measure rests, clicking on the start of the measure where you want to split, go to measure properties, and check "break multimeasure rest". 

I feel that this is very inconvenient regardless because firstly, this method isn't very apparent and easy to find (unless you do some Googling), and while it can be convenient in that it's automated for you, there isn't a manual setting for multimeasure rests either. 

I would like to propose implementing an additional method for multimeasure rests, in which you can give two inputs, the measure number where the rest starts and the measure number to which you rest, and it creates a multimeasure rest for you, and another where you can select multiple empty measure, and go under Measure Properties in order to concatenate them all into on single multimeasure rest. 

This can be a kinda picky thing to nitpick at, but I feel like It would make something a lot easier if you are creating a score based off of something handwritten, and the composer is very specific about measure rests, for whichever reason. I also feel like this way is more natural, rather than going under the style menu. I was surprised there wasn't a Rest option under Palettes! 

I hope to hear feedback! 

Sincerely,
Joyce 

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Re: GSOC 2016 - Project Idea: Multi Measure Rests

Marc Sabatella
That sounds much *harder* to me, not easier at all.  How is going to all that trouble easier than just pressing "M"?  Or, better yet, having created automatically for you when you generate parts from your scores?  They break autmatically at double bars and other significant events, so the "specific" mutlimeasure rests normally happen completely automatically, and in cases where for some unusual reaosn you want to break a multimeasure rest but *not* have a double bar or other marked there (this is very rare), you can do this as well, via Measure Properties.

I'd recommend you maybe ask about how to use multimmeasure rests on the forum, and then I think you'll probably find the system actually does work extremely well, and you'll be able to find more suitable GSoC project.  That's my personal opinion, anyhow.

On Mon, Mar 14, 2016 at 6:47 PM Joyce Yom <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hello! 

My name is Joyce Yom, and I'm a sophomore studying Computer Science at Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute. I only heard about GSOC just a few days ago, otherwise I would have contacted MuseScore a LOT earlier. 

I do not have much experience with Qt, but I have extensive experience with C++, which is what I prefer to code in. 

I was wondering if for my project, I could implement an easier way to notate multiple measure rests.Currently, the only way to implement these is adding them in at the end by checking the box for "Create multimeasure rests" under the Style menu, or to create split measure rests, clicking on the start of the measure where you want to split, go to measure properties, and check "break multimeasure rest". 

I feel that this is very inconvenient regardless because firstly, this method isn't very apparent and easy to find (unless you do some Googling), and while it can be convenient in that it's automated for you, there isn't a manual setting for multimeasure rests either. 

I would like to propose implementing an additional method for multimeasure rests, in which you can give two inputs, the measure number where the rest starts and the measure number to which you rest, and it creates a multimeasure rest for you, and another where you can select multiple empty measure, and go under Measure Properties in order to concatenate them all into on single multimeasure rest. 

This can be a kinda picky thing to nitpick at, but I feel like It would make something a lot easier if you are creating a score based off of something handwritten, and the composer is very specific about measure rests, for whichever reason. I also feel like this way is more natural, rather than going under the style menu. I was surprised there wasn't a Rest option under Palettes! 

I hope to hear feedback! 

Sincerely,
Joyce 
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Re: GSOC 2016 - Project Idea: Multi Measure Rests

Marc Sabatella
I apologize, BTW, for seeming unwelcoming.  We are happy you are interested in MuseScore, and we always appreciate when people come up with their own ideas.  I personally remain skeptical of the sort of changes you suggest, but it's worth discussing to better understand the perceived need need for such a feature.

Marc

On Mon, Mar 14, 2016 at 8:00 PM Marc Sabatella <[hidden email]> wrote:
That sounds much *harder* to me, not easier at all.  How is going to all that trouble easier than just pressing "M"?  Or, better yet, having created automatically for you when you generate parts from your scores?  They break autmatically at double bars and other significant events, so the "specific" mutlimeasure rests normally happen completely automatically, and in cases where for some unusual reaosn you want to break a multimeasure rest but *not* have a double bar or other marked there (this is very rare), you can do this as well, via Measure Properties.

I'd recommend you maybe ask about how to use multimmeasure rests on the forum, and then I think you'll probably find the system actually does work extremely well, and you'll be able to find more suitable GSoC project.  That's my personal opinion, anyhow.


On Mon, Mar 14, 2016 at 6:47 PM Joyce Yom <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hello! 

My name is Joyce Yom, and I'm a sophomore studying Computer Science at Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute. I only heard about GSOC just a few days ago, otherwise I would have contacted MuseScore a LOT earlier. 

I do not have much experience with Qt, but I have extensive experience with C++, which is what I prefer to code in. 

I was wondering if for my project, I could implement an easier way to notate multiple measure rests.Currently, the only way to implement these is adding them in at the end by checking the box for "Create multimeasure rests" under the Style menu, or to create split measure rests, clicking on the start of the measure where you want to split, go to measure properties, and check "break multimeasure rest". 

I feel that this is very inconvenient regardless because firstly, this method isn't very apparent and easy to find (unless you do some Googling), and while it can be convenient in that it's automated for you, there isn't a manual setting for multimeasure rests either. 

I would like to propose implementing an additional method for multimeasure rests, in which you can give two inputs, the measure number where the rest starts and the measure number to which you rest, and it creates a multimeasure rest for you, and another where you can select multiple empty measure, and go under Measure Properties in order to concatenate them all into on single multimeasure rest. 

This can be a kinda picky thing to nitpick at, but I feel like It would make something a lot easier if you are creating a score based off of something handwritten, and the composer is very specific about measure rests, for whichever reason. I also feel like this way is more natural, rather than going under the style menu. I was surprised there wasn't a Rest option under Palettes! 

I hope to hear feedback! 

Sincerely,
Joyce 
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Re: GSOC 2016 - Project Idea: Multi Measure Rests

Yomj
This post was updated on .
Hi!

It's okay, it really is something that I also thought was kind of picky, but I meant it as something additional to what's already currently implemented. Because for me personally, I felt that if I wanted a multimeasure rest, I would first try selecting all the empty measures, and see if there was an option under Measure Properties to make it a multimeasure rest. And if the number of empty measures was too large, then just typing in the measure numbers as boundaries. I've noticed that I'm not always very clear with what I'm trying to say, so maybe that was also an issue.

But obviously, if it's something that in the end is redundant, then it's not a great idea.

I really appreciate your feedback, thank you for taking the time to reply!

Sincerely,
Joyce
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Re: GSOC 2016 - Project Idea: Multi Measure Rests

Marc Sabatella
Thanks for taking my comment in the spirit in which it was meant!

If it were just about having an additional way of creating them, I wouldn't be concerned.  But right now, multimeasure rests are an all-or-nothing thing internally, and this assumption is spread throughout the code.  We have had a number of bugs involving multimeasures rests and changing the implementation to allow some rests to be combined but others not (other than the current method where you can set a measure to explicitly break them) would probably be a fairly risky change.

But now that I think about it, I can imagine a new option you could enable along with the multimeasure rest mode, and when this option is set, all measures would be treated as if they had "break multimeasure rest" set by default.  Then a new command to combine rests into a multimeasure rest could be created; this would just explicitly set a new measure property "don't break multimeasure rests" that would make these measures work "normally".  I think something like this could be implemented without major changes.  In fact, it's probably not a big enough change to make a good GSoC project :-), but it is possible something like this could be combined with other related ideas.

Marc

On Mon, Mar 14, 2016 at 8:31 PM Yomj <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hi!

It's okay, it really is something that I also thought was kind of picky, but
I meant it as something additional to what's already currently implemented.
Because for me personally, I felt that if I wanted a multimeasure rest, I
would first try selecting all the empty measures, and see if there was an
option under Measure Properties to make it a multimeasure rest. And if the
number of empty measures was too large, then just typing in the measure
numbers as boundaries.

But obviously, if it's something that in the end is redundant, then it's not
a great idea.

I really appreciate your feedback, thank you for taking the time to reply!

Sincerely,
Joyce



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View this message in context: http://dev-list.musescore.org/GSOC-2016-Project-Idea-Multi-Measure-Rests-tp7579660p7579663.html
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Re: GSOC 2016 - Project Idea: Multi Measure Rests

Yomj
I didn't realize how much that assumption got spread out to the other code, so that makes a lot more sense now.

Maybe it could be combined with the half/double durations? Because even if they address two different things, there still is a component of changing measures.  

But really, thank you for your input! It means a lot.

Joyce
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Re: GSOC 2016 - Project Idea: Multi Measure Rests

David Bolton-2
In reply to this post by Marc Sabatella
Marc,

There is one use case where I wished that I could set the multi-measures
manually: copying only a few instruments from the full score into
MuseScore.

Scenario 1:
You get an orchestral trumpet part in D but your trumpeters are not good
enough to transpose from sight. This is common in the educational
setting, but I've even redone parts for musicians in professional
orchestras. When you get to a multi-measure rest, you have to leave
multiple blank measures (that are easy to miscount). It also creates a
visual difference between the part you are copying to what you see on
the screen (which makes errors more common).

Scenario 2:
You want to make editorial/artistic changes to section of the score.
Perhaps your changes only affect the brass section, so you only input
that section of the score in to MuseScore rather than the full score.
When you get to a multi-measure rest, you have the same problems as
scenario 1 above.

There are ways to use MuseScore as it currently exists for these
scenarios. For example you could add the multi-measures at the very end
after you've added all the notes (by inserting exactly the number of
measures you need for each multi-measure rest). However, making multiple
passes on input is something I try to avoid since it is so prone to
mistakes.

In summary, the current implementation of multi-measure rests is ideal
when you are working with full scores. But manually setting
multi-measure rests is ideal when you are working with only part of a
full score.

David



On 3/14/2016 9:00 PM, Marc Sabatella wrote:

> That sounds much *harder* to me, not easier at all.  How is going to
> all that trouble easier than just pressing "M"?  Or, better yet,
> having created automatically for you when you generate parts from your
> scores?  They break autmatically at double bars and other significant
> events, so the "specific" mutlimeasure rests normally happen
> completely automatically, and in cases where for some unusual reaosn
> you want to break a multimeasure rest but *not* have a double bar or
> other marked there (this is very rare), you can do this as well, via
> Measure Properties.
>
> I'd recommend you maybe ask about how to use multimmeasure rests on
> the forum, and then I think you'll probably find the system actually
> does work extremely well, and you'll be able to find more suitable
> GSoC project.  That's my personal opinion, anyhow.
>
> On Mon, Mar 14, 2016 at 6:47 PM Joyce Yom <[hidden email]
> <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:
>
>     Hello!
>
>     My name is Joyce Yom, and I'm a sophomore studying Computer
>     Science at Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute. I only heard about
>     GSOC just a few days ago, otherwise I would have contacted
>     MuseScore a LOT earlier.
>
>     I do not have much experience with Qt, but I have extensive
>     experience with C++, which is what I prefer to code in.
>
>     I was wondering if for my project, I could implement an easier way
>     to notate multiple measure rests.Currently, the only way to
>     implement these is adding them in at the end by checking the box
>     for "Create multimeasure rests" under the Style menu, or to create
>     split measure rests, clicking on the start of the measure where
>     you want to split, go to measure properties, and check "break
>     multimeasure rest".
>
>     I feel that this is very inconvenient regardless because firstly,
>     this method isn't very apparent and easy to find (unless you do
>     some Googling), and while it can be convenient in that it's
>     automated for you, there isn't a manual setting for multimeasure
>     rests either.
>
>     I would like to propose implementing an additional method for
>     multimeasure rests, in which you can give two inputs, the measure
>     number where the rest starts and the measure number to which you
>     rest, and it creates a multimeasure rest for you, and another
>     where you can select multiple empty measure, and go under Measure
>     Properties in order to concatenate them all into on single
>     multimeasure rest.
>
>     This can be a kinda picky thing to nitpick at, but I feel like It
>     would make something a lot easier if you are creating a score
>     based off of something handwritten, and the composer is very
>     specific about measure rests, for whichever reason. I also feel
>     like this way is more natural, rather than going under the style
>     menu. I was surprised there wasn't a Rest option under Palettes!
>
>     I hope to hear feedback!
>
>     Sincerely,
>     Joyce
>     ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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>     Accelerate data analysis in your applications with
>     Intel Data Analytics Acceleration Library.
>     Click to learn more.
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>     [hidden email]
>     <mailto:[hidden email]>
>     https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/mscore-developer
>
>
>
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>
>
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Re: GSOC 2016 - Project Idea: Multi Measure Rests

lasconic
Administrator
In fact the challenge is to manage to be ideal for both use cases

The current implementation works well but:

1/ It's not easily discoverable. We could add a menu entry for the M shortcut. We could expose the (un)break mmRest property in the inspector when one or more measure are selected.

2/ Find a way to make it easier to create mmRest manually without destroying the ease of use we have right now. Marc's proposal is a step in the right direction. Maybe the (un)break property of measures could be a styled property. So the user can set it at once for the whole score. Any change would be kept, just like for other styled properties.


lasconic


2016-03-15 10:50 GMT+04:00 David Bolton <[hidden email]>:
Marc,

There is one use case where I wished that I could set the multi-measures
manually: copying only a few instruments from the full score into
MuseScore.

Scenario 1:
You get an orchestral trumpet part in D but your trumpeters are not good
enough to transpose from sight. This is common in the educational
setting, but I've even redone parts for musicians in professional
orchestras. When you get to a multi-measure rest, you have to leave
multiple blank measures (that are easy to miscount). It also creates a
visual difference between the part you are copying to what you see on
the screen (which makes errors more common).

Scenario 2:
You want to make editorial/artistic changes to section of the score.
Perhaps your changes only affect the brass section, so you only input
that section of the score in to MuseScore rather than the full score.
When you get to a multi-measure rest, you have the same problems as
scenario 1 above.

There are ways to use MuseScore as it currently exists for these
scenarios. For example you could add the multi-measures at the very end
after you've added all the notes (by inserting exactly the number of
measures you need for each multi-measure rest). However, making multiple
passes on input is something I try to avoid since it is so prone to
mistakes.

In summary, the current implementation of multi-measure rests is ideal
when you are working with full scores. But manually setting
multi-measure rests is ideal when you are working with only part of a
full score.

David



On 3/14/2016 9:00 PM, Marc Sabatella wrote:
> That sounds much *harder* to me, not easier at all.  How is going to
> all that trouble easier than just pressing "M"?  Or, better yet,
> having created automatically for you when you generate parts from your
> scores?  They break autmatically at double bars and other significant
> events, so the "specific" mutlimeasure rests normally happen
> completely automatically, and in cases where for some unusual reaosn
> you want to break a multimeasure rest but *not* have a double bar or
> other marked there (this is very rare), you can do this as well, via
> Measure Properties.
>
> I'd recommend you maybe ask about how to use multimmeasure rests on
> the forum, and then I think you'll probably find the system actually
> does work extremely well, and you'll be able to find more suitable
> GSoC project.  That's my personal opinion, anyhow.
>
> On Mon, Mar 14, 2016 at 6:47 PM Joyce Yom <[hidden email]
> <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:
>
>     Hello!
>
>     My name is Joyce Yom, and I'm a sophomore studying Computer
>     Science at Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute. I only heard about
>     GSOC just a few days ago, otherwise I would have contacted
>     MuseScore a LOT earlier.
>
>     I do not have much experience with Qt, but I have extensive
>     experience with C++, which is what I prefer to code in.
>
>     I was wondering if for my project, I could implement an easier way
>     to notate multiple measure rests.Currently, the only way to
>     implement these is adding them in at the end by checking the box
>     for "Create multimeasure rests" under the Style menu, or to create
>     split measure rests, clicking on the start of the measure where
>     you want to split, go to measure properties, and check "break
>     multimeasure rest".
>
>     I feel that this is very inconvenient regardless because firstly,
>     this method isn't very apparent and easy to find (unless you do
>     some Googling), and while it can be convenient in that it's
>     automated for you, there isn't a manual setting for multimeasure
>     rests either.
>
>     I would like to propose implementing an additional method for
>     multimeasure rests, in which you can give two inputs, the measure
>     number where the rest starts and the measure number to which you
>     rest, and it creates a multimeasure rest for you, and another
>     where you can select multiple empty measure, and go under Measure
>     Properties in order to concatenate them all into on single
>     multimeasure rest.
>
>     This can be a kinda picky thing to nitpick at, but I feel like It
>     would make something a lot easier if you are creating a score
>     based off of something handwritten, and the composer is very
>     specific about measure rests, for whichever reason. I also feel
>     like this way is more natural, rather than going under the style
>     menu. I was surprised there wasn't a Rest option under Palettes!
>
>     I hope to hear feedback!
>
>     Sincerely,
>     Joyce
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>     Accelerate data analysis in your applications with
>     Intel Data Analytics Acceleration Library.
>     Click to learn more.
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>     Mscore-developer mailing list
>     [hidden email]
>     <mailto:[hidden email]>
>     https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/mscore-developer
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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> Intel Data Analytics Acceleration Library.
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>
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