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Ties Behavior

antonjazzsax
Hi,
I'm new here so excuse me if anything.
This one is about ties:

- I think it's absolutely necessary to provide a quicker way to add/remove ties.
I'm thinking a simple TOGGLE function.
Ties are used heavily during note input and should really be as quick as one key stroke for both: adding and removing them.
- Ties stretching up to the remote same-pitched note in the bar (if not followed by the same pitched note)
 is an interesting feature, but for above mentioned reason is a little impractical and should not be triggered automatically. It just becomes a source of typo-like mistakes. If anybody really needs to have a tie extended to the remote note in the bar, one could just add a slur. Finally: by making ties edditable would solve the issue entirely.
99% of times you only need two consecutive notes tied over.

Thank you and looking forward for further development

Anton
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Re: Ties Behavior

Jojo-Schmitz
Hi Anton

In note entry mode a tie is created via the + key and creates a tied-to note
of the selected duration directly after the previous one.
If a selected duration is too long to fix the current measure, the note is
split and tied automagically.
I can't really think of a quicker method to add ties. Deleting a tie is
similarly simple: select, hit Del.

Only outside note entry mode the + key ties to the next note of same pitch,
which may or may not be adjacent.
Adding ties outside note entry, with no adjacent note of the same pitch is a
rare case, or a user error (garbage in, garbage out).
Using a slur instead would not work in playback.

Bye, Jojo
-----Original Message-----
From: antonjazzsax [mailto:[hidden email]]
Sent: Sunday, April 10, 2016 1:00 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: [Mscore-developer] Ties Behavior

Hi,
I'm new here so excuse me if anything.
This one is about ties:

- I think it's absolutely necessary to provide a quicker way to add/remove
ties.
I'm thinking a simple TOGGLE function.
Ties are used heavily during note input and should really be as quick as one
key stroke for both: adding and removing them.
- Ties stretching up to the remote same-pitched note in the bar (if not
followed by the same pitched note)  is an interesting feature, but for above
mentioned reason is a little impractical and should not be triggered
automatically. It just becomes a source of typo-like mistakes. If anybody
really needs to have a tie extended to the remote note in the bar, one could
just add a slur. Finally: by making ties edditable would solve the issue
entirely.
99% of times you only need two consecutive notes tied over.

Thank you and looking forward for further development

Anton



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Re: Ties Behavior

Marc Sabatella
Also, deleting ties would normally be a pretty rare operation.  Comapred to other items that might be deleted, it's probably *less* common to delete ties once entered than, say, articulations.  I can't imagine reason why there would need to be a special way to delete ties that is any different from how other elements are deleted.

From your description of the difficulty you are having with ties, it sounds like perhaps you are having trouble understanding how to do something; you might want to ask for assistance in the Support forum.  Posting the score you are having trouble with and a detailed description of what you are trying to do will help others see how best to advise you.

On Sun, Apr 10, 2016 at 5:37 AM Joachim Schmitz <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hi Anton

In note entry mode a tie is created via the + key and creates a tied-to note
of the selected duration directly after the previous one.
If a selected duration is too long to fix the current measure, the note is
split and tied automagically.
I can't really think of a quicker method to add ties. Deleting a tie is
similarly simple: select, hit Del.

Only outside note entry mode the + key ties to the next note of same pitch,
which may or may not be adjacent.
Adding ties outside note entry, with no adjacent note of the same pitch is a
rare case, or a user error (garbage in, garbage out).
Using a slur instead would not work in playback.

Bye, Jojo
-----Original Message-----
From: antonjazzsax [mailto:[hidden email]]
Sent: Sunday, April 10, 2016 1:00 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: [Mscore-developer] Ties Behavior

Hi,
I'm new here so excuse me if anything.
This one is about ties:

- I think it's absolutely necessary to provide a quicker way to add/remove
ties.
I'm thinking a simple TOGGLE function.
Ties are used heavily during note input and should really be as quick as one
key stroke for both: adding and removing them.
- Ties stretching up to the remote same-pitched note in the bar (if not
followed by the same pitched note)  is an interesting feature, but for above
mentioned reason is a little impractical and should not be triggered
automatically. It just becomes a source of typo-like mistakes. If anybody
really needs to have a tie extended to the remote note in the bar, one could
just add a slur. Finally: by making ties edditable would solve the issue
entirely.
99% of times you only need two consecutive notes tied over.

Thank you and looking forward for further development

Anton



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Re: Ties Behavior

antonjazzsax
This post was updated on .
In reply to this post by Jojo-Schmitz
thanks,
 just few thoughts to consider

Jojo-Schmitz wrote
I can't really think of a quicker method to add ties. Deleting a tie is
similarly simple: select, hit Del.
Basically whenever you have to select anything with a mouse it helps the beginner but is degrading workflow and speed for a power user. (Think touch typing without looking at the keyboard).
This is particularly true for frequently used elements.
I'm only missing a delete function here though.


Jojo-Schmitz wrote
Adding ties outside note entry
There are frequent situations where you have to edit ties outside the note entry.
One example: you just copy and pasted a large passage displacing it's position relative to the beat, or pasted it to a different key signature -
you ended up with the bunch of irrational ties groupings that you have to get change for the proper readability! Ideally at the bulk action.
That's a call for toggle action to me.

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Re: Ties Behavior

Marc Sabatella
In reply to this post by Marc Sabatella
Wel, you said you are looking for a single keystroke command to add ties, indicating you aren't aware there already is one.  And you said you were new, so that's understandable - lots of newcomers don't know about the ins and outs of how to use a program efficiently.  That's where asking questions on the Support forum can really help.

And you haven't explained what sort of unusual special circumstance you are encountering that causes you to need to *delete* ties often - this happens only very rarely in normal use.  And when you mention ties to notes that are not adjacent - which most users would never encounter - it suggests that perhaps you are perhaps doing something unusual, perhaps because of your lack of familiarity with the program, perhaps because you are dealing with some very unusual music.  That's is another reason I encourage you to ask for assistance on the Support forum, where if you explain what you are trying to do - how you are getting yourself into these situations where you need to delete ties - people can probably show you how to accomplish what you want easily.

As for the need to click something in order to delete it, that is indeed a limitation we hope to remove some day, by providing more keybaord navigation.  But again, my point is, ties are not unique in this, or even a particualrly good example, because ties are probably deleted *less* often than other elements in normal usage.  So, a general purpose way to select things without the mouse is important, a special "delete tie" command would be far less valueable..

Marc

On Sun, Apr 10, 2016 at 8:47 AM antonjazzsax <[hidden email]> wrote:
Marc Sabatella wrote
> From your description of the difficulty you are having with ties, it
> sounds
> like perhaps you are having trouble understanding how to do something; you
> might want to ask for assistance in the Support forum.  Posting the score
> you are having trouble with and a detailed description of what you are
> trying to do will help others see how best to advise you.

Thank you for your suggestion but I'm not having difficulties.
It's a very intuitive and easy to use program that I admire a lot. I haven't
used it too much, but I think there is a great potential to it especially
for the freeware!

However having produced over 1000 pages of score paper in different notation
programs I really know it in and out.

it is indeed aimed at the development team o consider.



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Re: Ties Behavior

Jojo-Schmitz
In reply to this post by antonjazzsax
>There are frequent situations where you have to edit ties outside the note
>entry.
>One example: you just copy and pasted a large passage displacing it's
>position relative to the beat, or to a different key signature -
>you ended up with the bunch of unnecessary ties that you have to get rid
of!
>Ideally at the bulk action.

a) those ties are not unnecessary at all, they try to keep note durations!
b) if you want to get rid of them, select start to end of desired section,
right click a tie in that selection," all similar in selection", Del.

-----Original Message-----
From: antonjazzsax [mailto:[hidden email]]
Sent: Sunday, April 10, 2016 4:34 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Mscore-developer] Ties Behavior

thanks,
 just few thoughts to consider


Jojo-Schmitz wrote
> I can't really think of a quicker method to add ties. Deleting a tie is
> similarly simple: select, hit Del.

Basically whenever you have to select anything with a mouse it helps the
beginner but is degrading workflow and speed for a power user. (Think touch
typing without looking at the keyboard).
This is particularly true for frequently used elements.
I'm only missing a delete function here though.



Jojo-Schmitz wrote
> Adding ties outside note entry

There are frequent situations where you have to edit ties outside the note
entry.
One example: you just copy and pasted a large passage displacing it's
position relative to the beat, or to a different key signature -
you ended up with the bunch of unnecessary ties that you have to get rid of!
Ideally at the bulk action.
That's a call for toggle action to me.





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Re: Ties Behavior

antonjazzsax
In reply to this post by Marc Sabatella
Thank you and
sorry I didn't explain myself quite clearly.
Marc Sabatella wrote
 my point is, ties are not unique in this, or even a
particualrly good example, because ties are probably deleted *less* often
than other elements in normal usage.  
You are right it's not about deleting ties. Although it would be helpful to be able to toggle ties ON and OFF.

Marc Sabatella wrote
As for the need to click something in order to delete it, that is indeed a
limitation we hope to remove some day, by providing more keybaord
navigation.
Thats exactly what I mean. At some point a writer really wants to eliminate any need for mouse clicks and extra key strokes as much as possible.

Another thing that came to my mind...

You basically have three different editing "modes":
note input, range selection, and single element selection .
They all share some mutual functionality while certain things are only available at one mode or another
like:
- repeat command (R key) is only available at the note input and range selection mode, but not if you've selected a single note
- you cannot make a  range selection while in the note input mode.
- you can not add a dot to the note in range selection or note input mode directly.
- Del(backspace) key acts somewhat like a Ctrl Z command when in the note input mode (instead of deleting the note entirely leaving a rest it brings back the note that was entered before the correction was made).
To me it's a potentially excessive key striking situation.

Why is it important?
The point is:
 arrangers and composers tend to work in a much more chaotic unpredictable way than one could think.
It's not uncommon for me and my colleagues to be switching between different modes every few seconds, moving things around doing lots of copy and paste, re-editing lines back and forth e.t.c.  
Actual note input is a comparatively small portion of that process (maybe 30%).

Having a  coherent editing workflow is crucial for this kind of work and I would say the more complex the process is, the more predictable and straightforward program's behavior should be in any mode.


Hope this is useful and not overly critical.

best,

Anton
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Re: Ties Behavior

antonjazzsax
This post was updated on .
In reply to this post by Jojo-Schmitz
Jojo-Schmitz wrote
a) those ties are not unnecessary at all, they try to keep note durations!
b) if you want to get rid of them, select start to end of desired section,
right click a tie in that selection," all similar in selection", Del.
sorry again as I wasn't clear enough,
by saying getting rid of ties I mean:
You want to be able to regroup the rhythmic notation in the fastest and most efficient way possible,
preferably  without having to go to the note input mode.

It's not hard to do it the way it works now.
 it's just not as flexible because you cannot apply some commands in certain situations.
Example
there is no way to correct that by let's say pressing letter
W two times or 6 (making all appear a half note). Because those commands act only in a restricted manner.
Thus you have to correct every single grouping rather than applying similar action to the entire range.

As I said in my previous post:
I'm missing certain universality of those otherwise excellent functions  
 
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Re: Ties Behavior

Marc Sabatella
I can totally agree with the idea of a command to automatically recaculate note lengths after a copy paste, to replace unnecessary ties with the correct note value.  But this has nothing to do with deleting a tie.  I'd want a single command the did this for the whole selection - I wouldn't want to laboriously dewlete ties individually (whether or not we improved it to not require a mouse click).

And in any event, replacing two tied notes with a single note of the same duration does *not* require deleting a tie.  SImply change the duration of the first note.  Eg, if you have a half tied to a quarter and you want to replace it with a dotted half, just select the half and press the dot.  A "delete tie" command would only *add* keystrokes to this process; it would in no way help the use case you descrbed.

As for your other ideas regarding selection, again, the forums is really a better place to discuss suhc things, as other users will likely have valid ideas to share as well.

Marc

On Sun, Apr 10, 2016 at 3:38 PM antonjazzsax <[hidden email]> wrote:


Jojo-Schmitz wrote
> a) those ties are not unnecessary at all, they try to keep note durations!
> b) if you want to get rid of them, select start to end of desired section,
> right click a tie in that selection," all similar in selection", Del.

sorry again I wasn't clear enough,
by saying getting rid of ties I mean:
You want to be able to regroup the rhythmic notation in the fastest and most
efficient way possible,
preferably  without having to go to the note input mode



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Re: Ties Behavior

lasconic
Administrator
<quote> recaculate note lengths after a copy paste</quote>
Yes. I want this function too. Do we have a formal feature request for it in the issue tracker?


<quote>99% of times you only need two consecutive notes tied over.</quote>
I agree too. I think it's too easy currently to tie two non consecutive notes. In my view, it should only happen if two notes with the same pitch are list selected.

<quote>A simple toggle for tie</quote>
Why not, it might be possible to change the + action so that we can add and delete a tie with it.

lasconic

2016-04-11 1:50 GMT+02:00 Marc Sabatella <[hidden email]>:
I can totally agree with the idea of a command to automatically recaculate note lengths after a copy paste, to replace unnecessary ties with the correct note value.  But this has nothing to do with deleting a tie.  I'd want a single command the did this for the whole selection - I wouldn't want to laboriously dewlete ties individually (whether or not we improved it to not require a mouse click).

And in any event, replacing two tied notes with a single note of the same duration does *not* require deleting a tie.  SImply change the duration of the first note.  Eg, if you have a half tied to a quarter and you want to replace it with a dotted half, just select the half and press the dot.  A "delete tie" command would only *add* keystrokes to this process; it would in no way help the use case you descrbed.

As for your other ideas regarding selection, again, the forums is really a better place to discuss suhc things, as other users will likely have valid ideas to share as well.

Marc

On Sun, Apr 10, 2016 at 3:38 PM antonjazzsax <[hidden email]> wrote:


Jojo-Schmitz wrote
> a) those ties are not unnecessary at all, they try to keep note durations!
> b) if you want to get rid of them, select start to end of desired section,
> right click a tie in that selection," all similar in selection", Del.

sorry again I wasn't clear enough,
by saying getting rid of ties I mean:
You want to be able to regroup the rhythmic notation in the fastest and most
efficient way possible,
preferably  without having to go to the note input mode



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Re: Ties Behavior

Marc Sabatella
The downside of changing the tie button into a toggle is that it becomes potentially harder to handle chords well.  Currently you can use the tie button to easily add ties to notes in a chord without affecting existing ties.  If we changed the tie to a toggle, you'd potentially end up adding ties where they were missing but deleting them where they already were, if the whole chord were selected.  If we made this only work while in note input mode, then it wouldn't be so bad, because you can't generally select a whole chord while in note input mode.  So it could work.  But I still don't really understand how it applies to the case at hand - you don't *need* to delete tie to change note length.

Marc

On Mon, Apr 11, 2016 at 1:39 AM Lasconic <[hidden email]> wrote:
<quote> recaculate note lengths after a copy paste</quote>
Yes. I want this function too. Do we have a formal feature request for it in the issue tracker?


<quote>99% of times you only need two consecutive notes tied over.</quote>
I agree too. I think it's too easy currently to tie two non consecutive notes. In my view, it should only happen if two notes with the same pitch are list selected.

<quote>A simple toggle for tie</quote>
Why not, it might be possible to change the + action so that we can add and delete a tie with it.

lasconic

2016-04-11 1:50 GMT+02:00 Marc Sabatella <[hidden email]>:
I can totally agree with the idea of a command to automatically recaculate note lengths after a copy paste, to replace unnecessary ties with the correct note value.  But this has nothing to do with deleting a tie.  I'd want a single command the did this for the whole selection - I wouldn't want to laboriously dewlete ties individually (whether or not we improved it to not require a mouse click).

And in any event, replacing two tied notes with a single note of the same duration does *not* require deleting a tie.  SImply change the duration of the first note.  Eg, if you have a half tied to a quarter and you want to replace it with a dotted half, just select the half and press the dot.  A "delete tie" command would only *add* keystrokes to this process; it would in no way help the use case you descrbed.

As for your other ideas regarding selection, again, the forums is really a better place to discuss suhc things, as other users will likely have valid ideas to share as well.

Marc

On Sun, Apr 10, 2016 at 3:38 PM antonjazzsax <[hidden email]> wrote:


Jojo-Schmitz wrote
> a) those ties are not unnecessary at all, they try to keep note durations!
> b) if you want to get rid of them, select start to end of desired section,
> right click a tie in that selection," all similar in selection", Del.

sorry again I wasn't clear enough,
by saying getting rid of ties I mean:
You want to be able to regroup the rhythmic notation in the fastest and most
efficient way possible,
preferably  without having to go to the note input mode



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Re: Ties Behavior

lasconic
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I was more talking about adding a toggle when a note is selected.

lasconic

2016-04-11 18:06 GMT+02:00 Marc Sabatella <[hidden email]>:
The downside of changing the tie button into a toggle is that it becomes potentially harder to handle chords well.  Currently you can use the tie button to easily add ties to notes in a chord without affecting existing ties.  If we changed the tie to a toggle, you'd potentially end up adding ties where they were missing but deleting them where they already were, if the whole chord were selected.  If we made this only work while in note input mode, then it wouldn't be so bad, because you can't generally select a whole chord while in note input mode.  So it could work.  But I still don't really understand how it applies to the case at hand - you don't *need* to delete tie to change note length.

Marc

On Mon, Apr 11, 2016 at 1:39 AM Lasconic <[hidden email]> wrote:
<quote> recaculate note lengths after a copy paste</quote>
Yes. I want this function too. Do we have a formal feature request for it in the issue tracker?


<quote>99% of times you only need two consecutive notes tied over.</quote>
I agree too. I think it's too easy currently to tie two non consecutive notes. In my view, it should only happen if two notes with the same pitch are list selected.

<quote>A simple toggle for tie</quote>
Why not, it might be possible to change the + action so that we can add and delete a tie with it.

lasconic

2016-04-11 1:50 GMT+02:00 Marc Sabatella <[hidden email]>:
I can totally agree with the idea of a command to automatically recaculate note lengths after a copy paste, to replace unnecessary ties with the correct note value.  But this has nothing to do with deleting a tie.  I'd want a single command the did this for the whole selection - I wouldn't want to laboriously dewlete ties individually (whether or not we improved it to not require a mouse click).

And in any event, replacing two tied notes with a single note of the same duration does *not* require deleting a tie.  SImply change the duration of the first note.  Eg, if you have a half tied to a quarter and you want to replace it with a dotted half, just select the half and press the dot.  A "delete tie" command would only *add* keystrokes to this process; it would in no way help the use case you descrbed.

As for your other ideas regarding selection, again, the forums is really a better place to discuss suhc things, as other users will likely have valid ideas to share as well.

Marc

On Sun, Apr 10, 2016 at 3:38 PM antonjazzsax <[hidden email]> wrote:


Jojo-Schmitz wrote
> a) those ties are not unnecessary at all, they try to keep note durations!
> b) if you want to get rid of them, select start to end of desired section,
> right click a tie in that selection," all similar in selection", Del.

sorry again I wasn't clear enough,
by saying getting rid of ties I mean:
You want to be able to regroup the rhythmic notation in the fastest and most
efficient way possible,
preferably  without having to go to the note input mode



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Re: Ties Behavior

antonjazzsax
This post was updated on .
In reply to this post by Marc Sabatella
Marc Sabatella wrote
The downside of changing the tie button into a toggle is that it becomes
potentially harder to handle chords well.  Currently you can use the tie
button to easily add ties to notes in a chord without affecting existing
ties.  If we changed the tie to a toggle, you'd potentially end up adding
ties where they were missing but deleting them where they already were, if
the whole chord were selected.
Marc
The thing is,  you don't want to have chords with partial ties. That is something from a real world practice: If you are writing a  chord where the middle voice is moving and other are sustained you are basically asking for trouble.  Players gonna miss it 8 times out of 10 when sight reading.   The proper way would be to split notes to different voices.

Marc Sabatella wrote
  If we made this only work while in note
input mode, then it wouldn't be so bad, because you can't generally select
a whole chord while in note input mode.
Please don't do that! Surely there will be some loyal MUS followers who will get used to that working routine, but the majority of new users will want to have their most used commands to work globally.
I know that this is not exactly how your program is designed but for the practical use, people gonna want it dumb-proof, one-command-works-everywhere kind of layout. For sure it's not only referring to ties :)
Ask other people's opinion.... see what they say.
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Re: Ties Behavior

Marc Sabatella
I'm not sure what you're saying here. I agree having chords with partial ties is normally not what one wants. And that's precisely why I was saying I was uncomfortable with making the tie command a toggle, as that would make it harder to correct the situations where this happens currently. Right now, if you inadvertently create a partially tied chord (and it's easy enough to this in the normal course of editing), you can fix it by selecting the whole chird and pressing the tie button. This leaves the existing ties alone but adds new ones. I'd hate for that easy fix to be made harder. But making the tie command a toggle would have just that effect, unless we were very careful in implementing it to only work as a toggle if all selected notes have the same tie status. That's certainly a possibility.
On Mon, Apr 11, 2016 at 2:58 PM antonjazzsax <[hidden email]> wrote:
Marc Sabatella wrote
> The downside of changing the tie button into a toggle is that it becomes
> potentially harder to handle chords well.  Currently you can use the tie
> button to easily add ties to notes in a chord without affecting existing
> ties.  If we changed the tie to a toggle, you'd potentially end up adding
> ties where they were missing but deleting them where they already were, if
> the whole chord were selected.
> Marc

The thing is,  you don't want to have chords with partial ties. That is
something from a real world practice: If you are writing a  chord where the
middle voice is moving and other are sustained you are basically asking for
trouble.  Players gonna miss it 8 times out of 10 when sight reading.   The
proper way would be to split notes to different voices.


Marc Sabatella wrote
>   If we made this only work while in note
> input mode, then it wouldn't be so bad, because you can't generally select
> a whole chord while in note input mode.

Please don't do that! Surely there will be some loyal MUS followers who will
get used to that working routine, but the majority of new users will want to
have their most used commands to work globally.
I know that this is not exactly how your program is designed but for the
practical use, people gonna want it dumb-proof, one-command-works-everywhere
kind of layout.  Ask other people's opinion.... see what they say.



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Re: Ties Behavior

antonjazzsax
Marc Sabatella wrote
I was uncomfortable with making the tie command a toggle, as that would
make it harder to correct the situations where this happens currently.
Right now, if you inadvertently create a partially tied chord (and it's
easy enough to this in the normal course of editing), you can fix it by
selecting the whole chird and pressing the tie button. This leaves the
existing ties alone but adds new ones. I'd hate for that easy fix to be
made harder. But making the tie command a toggle would have just that
effect, unless we were very careful in implementing it to only work as a
toggle if all selected notes have the same tie status. That's certainly a
possibility.
I mean... sure, just look how Sibelius reacts to such situation...:
There let's say... you've  selected the entire chord with partial ties, hitting the tie command adds the remaining ties making a tieing complete... hitting it the second time removes ALL the ties from the given chord.   On a single note that would merely be a toggle. Very practical.


Another issue with the ties added outside the note input mode, is that when no adjacent note coming up, they may get extended up to the few pages ahead!!! The image below shows what happened when I exported xml of one of my pieces to MuS.  


I would rather restrict MuS from making a tie longer then up to the next note at all. As was said before those extended ties are not useful anyway.
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Re: Ties Behavior

Marc Sabatella
No, tiues that are not to adjacent note are definitely musically necessary sometimes.  They just shouldn't necessarily be so *easy* to create.

If your XML file produced the result shown in your picture, then your MusicXML file probably has errors in it.  Again, asking for help in the Supprot forum to figure out that specific problem would be a good idea.

On Tue, Apr 12, 2016 at 1:33 AM antonjazzsax <[hidden email]> wrote:
Marc Sabatella wrote
> I was uncomfortable with making the tie command a toggle, as that would
> make it harder to correct the situations where this happens currently.
> Right now, if you inadvertently create a partially tied chord (and it's
> easy enough to this in the normal course of editing), you can fix it by
> selecting the whole chird and pressing the tie button. This leaves the
> existing ties alone but adds new ones. I'd hate for that easy fix to be
> made harder. But making the tie command a toggle would have just that
> effect, unless we were very careful in implementing it to only work as a
> toggle if all selected notes have the same tie status. That's certainly a
> possibility.

I mean... sure, just look how Sibelius reacts to such situation...:
There let's say... you've  selected the entire chord with partial ties,
hitting the tie command adds the remaining ties making a tieing complete...
hitting it the second time removes ALL the ties from the given chord.   On a
single note that would merely be a toggle. Very practical.


Another issue with the ties added outside the note input mode, is that when
no adjacent note coming up, they may get extended up to the few pages
ahead!!! The image below shows what happened when I exported xml of one of
my pieces to MuS.
<http://dev-list.musescore.org/file/n7579810/Ex_ties.jpg>

I would rather restrict MuS from making a tie longer then up to the next
note at all. As was said before those extended ties are not useful anyway.



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